My reflections on language acquisition.
I'm probably unique here in that I can recall learning one of my native languages. In fact, before I was five I was exposed to the local French but was never taught any. I still remember one of my first days at school asking if I may go the washroom and being answered with "oui" and having to guess at what it meant. Although I lived with a French speaker, I wouldn't have learned the language had it not been forced upon me in school. From what I have experienced since, I would definitely say that the best language learning comes from it being forced upon oneself."R8B ?m9@:r fThe human brain is fundamentally lazy when it comes to language; it strives to learn the least acceptable. If one language gets understood and is easy to express in, it will be used above any other. It's only when that language is deprecated that one learns the new one. It's the expression part which is most difficult. I think anyone who remembers learning a language knows that. The frustration of not knowing how to say something in the new language while knowing exactly what to say in another is a suppressor. If you are not forced into trying to express it, by your teachers not understanding the stronger language (o rpretending not to), you will avoid trying to.&|$a#d DG3bw
I've never had English explained to me in French, nor French in English.That seems the proper way to do it, not because English need be explained in English and French in French but rather because it excercises and solidifies understanding of the language. It forces you to think in the new language. That's an unvoiced form of expression. I've had Chinese explained to me in English and it really did seem like a kludge compared to the other languages I've learned. It gave a quicker means for translation but associating the word with the concept took just as long. It's just a superficial understanding until it is well practiced.
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I really can't see a way to become proficient in a language without reproducing what native speakers experience in elementary school in some form. Second language teaching certainly doesn't reproduce that. Why? Laziness, as I mentioned above. With already one fully competent language known, people look to skip steps and tie the new language together with the old. That does have some benefits early on, but it should be used merely to gain proficiency to learn the new language in the new language. After that, it only becomes a hindrance.
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Recently, I started learning Latin. I really don't expect to keep up with it, but I just wanted to experience it a bit. I found some software, a program called The Rosetta Stone, that uses no translation whatsoever to teach the langage. I chose Latin just because of how ridiculous it is to learn spoken Latin and because it is an ancestor of French. Latin has been a dead language for hundreds of years, so there are no native speakers to do the voice recordings. Instead, they got what sounds like English speakers who have studied Romance languages. I find it reminds me a lot of grade primary; the vocabulary and the learning, are very similar. I certainly find it more natural than how I first learned what Chinese I know. It only teaches very basic things, but I get a feel for grammar and morphology, which are quite helpful in trying to express something in Latin (if I everfind the need for it). [There's also an English version of The Rosetta Stone for anyone interested. If you can read this, it probably won't teach you anything but it may be good for listening practice. I find the Chinese version can be used for that.]
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So, I guess my conclusion should be that if you want to learn a language there are three things you should aim for: to force yourself to need to use that language, to force yourself to avoid using any other language along with that language, and finally to force yourself to study grammar and usage in that language. kZ X(b @ hi f:I
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[[i] 本帖最后由 maebus 于 2007-1-24 13:44 编辑 [/i]] I call your article "three forces"::z2 well, it's always easy to say... how can you practise your new language without speaking your native one?
回复 #4 lovejustlove 的帖子
Well, you can't completely. Certainly, if there is a great discrepancy between fluency in both languages, you'll know how to express yourself in the native language only. Bilinguals themselves don't always know how to express the same thing in their native languages. So, as long as you know more than one language you'll always find some situation where you want to use a word or expression from one in another.R9D0\M5}*Ss!m0L n3db
I think it's key to note the way in which bilinguals mix their languages as they are learning. It's helpful even if you don't have the luxury of a bilingual to correct you. When learning the new language, understanding the structure is far, far more important than understanding the vocabulary. There's a language we call Franglais here, which is grammatically French but almost entirely English (not to be confused with what the French call Franglais). Early on in school, we would speak in Franglais and be answered in French. The reply would contain the words we meant to say, so we picked up the language that way. (An example in, umm, Reverse Franglais would go something like: "Did you [i]pris[/i] my [i]clefs[/i]." "Nobody took them. Your keys are over there.")/?,E-n_,TPQ9Q1r D6C x
So, you can still practice English with a mostly Chinese vocabulary. Just by forcing yourself to use pronouns, conjunctions, prepositions, articles and the likes in English, along with conjugations and other word changes like pluralization properly you'll have studied English well. That is the foundation of English.E(a {4O4M#R
Of course, that is the part which doesn't seem to be taught in second language teaching well at all. I can't think of any better way than how bilinguals naturally learn a language: by starting with the foundation and working up. Second language teaching often tries to build upwards from the ground expecting the foundation to form itself.P$V N yPBf
Unfortunately, if you have no English speakers around to correct you, it's hard to know if you have your sentence structure correct. Even then, it's considered rude to pick at someone's grammar so incessantly, so it's much more difficult for an adult to find the same learning environment as a child.*E%`IE-Y5@i'e
I would really like to come across more software which simulates that type of environment. The Rosetta Stone, which I mentioned above, is the only such program I have come across. It's not by any means perfect, but it is certainly good. I'll really have to look into finding other examples.
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Once you've learned the foundation, you can practice the language by building off of the foundation. Figuring out how to translate expressions from one language and culture into another is a bit trickier. I can think of reading being very useful there. You'll also need a discussion of what you read to pick up cultural details. I really don't know of anywhere where you could find this. It's also something I'll have to look into. how can i solve this problem?g oN&QA(bc_
i could read native news and without difficulty in understanding, but can't speak. and that makes me desperate.
回复 #6 saladest 的帖子
the more u read, the better you would speak, and I suggest you watch some English film and TV programs, this would all helpful to develop the oral English skills. In China we begin to learn English from elementary schools too nowadays, when I was a child I begin to learn English as a pupil, but in fact I really learnt nothing, because we didn't need to take the exam of English,I am not forced to learn it. I think my real English learning begined in junior middle school, as we have to get good grades in the English exam in order to get into good high school and later enroll the College in China, so we are not complete zero when we start the advanced English learning in college, as in the middle schools we already have the English langue frame work build in in our minds, what is the most challenging parts in college for most young Chinese to learn English are the vocabularies and advanced listening and speaking skills of English. Chinese has only 5000 common use vocabularies in total, and you know how many we need to recoginize as a native English speaker live in a English speaking country. k0w!d h%YQp.v9s u)en p ~a:M,J
For most of the Chinese undergraduates here, I think just as you get enough vocabularies restored in your brain, the rest of the work would be only practice, practice and practice, that would make you more and more sophisticated about the language.
回复 #6 saladest 的帖子
The more you hear, the more you know what the language should sound like and the better you are to know when what you're speaking doesn't sound right. Just listen to as much native English as you can, with English subtitles only if needed, then try to copy it. It's not difficult, however it takes time.回复 #8 cosmoon 的帖子
China may have a framework, but I still see a lack of foundation. I see, all the time, people who do not know how to properly pose a question, how to structure a sentence, how to handle negative constructs, and so forth.These things are fundamental. These are the things that allow it to look like English, and without them the framework could easily rot.I've heard somewhere that about 2500 words make up a majority of English speech. I'm not sure if it's a correct figure or not, but it seems reasonable. It strikes me as peculiar that vocabulary would pose such a problem. I know from my experience that it's reasonable to teach those words in elementary school with only the one class in English per year. If taught right, picking up vocabulary is quite easy. Sure, if I try to read a dictionary and remember every word it'll be a bit difficult, but picking up vocabulary should not at all be reduced to that.
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I know people who, after completing high school, immigrated to Canada from countries where English is purely a second language and I would not have known that they were not born in Canada without being told otherwise. The difference is all in the teaching. To them, English is taught the same way as their native languages. It's taught in the way I described, by starting with a foundation, then laying the framework.
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[[i] 本帖最后由 maebus 于 2007-1-25 15:14 编辑 [/i]]
回复 #10 maebus 的帖子
if you ever taked the GRE exam u would know how many words you need to learn in English, at least 10,000 words, usuallly you need to know more than that in order to get a good grade.回复 #11 cosmoon 的帖子
I see where you're coming from. I haven't been able to find any sources for it, but 10,000 might be enough for basic fluency. It's reported that 30,000 is a lower bound on the average vocabulary size of English-speaking adults, also without sources. However, the vast, vast majority of these words are learned naturally on an "I could see myself using this word" basis.There is a distinction to be made between learning a language and memorizing an artificial list of vocabulary. Sure, native speakers are forced to learn words through school at some point, but by then I would say that they have already learned English. I still stand by my claim that it is better to learn the language then learning your vocabulary in the language if nothing else because nuances are not lost in or wrongly attributed through translation. 'an artificial list of vocabulary', that's the very description of GRE.
All the words I can use during day-to-day talk come from my 'natural' exposure to them. What I learn from the Red Bible hasn't come to me for once. [quote]原帖由saladest 于 2007-1-25 16:30 发表.Oi$@u9f \~ c
how can i solve this problem?x }6{#bo
i could read native news and without difficulty in understanding, but can't speak. and that makes me desperate. [/quote]iNK U.i F-F:sO'l
You have made a couple of grammatical mistakes in the things you wrote.
回复 #13 Pharm.D 的帖子
I can't remember now which it was, the GRE yellow book or red book, that I looked through before. From what I saw, there were mostly words I knew and used, a handful of words I should have known what they meant, and then there were still a sizeable number of words I would probably never ever use nor see elsewhere.'M7T4\3E&W*a/Vu2y2_#n.C
Daily conversation uses a much smaller vocabulary than books, though, so many, but not all, of the GRE words would appear to you in fiction. That would be the next thing to go to, I'd say, to build your vocabulary.
回复 #15 maebus 的帖子
I am trying to enlarge my vocabulary, but I just get more and more lazy...回复 #16 Pharm.D 的帖子
I know what you mean. You could probably fix that a little if you found some author you really liked. Reading books you enjoy reading, you're bound to run into new vocabulary along the way. I am always wondering what's your nationaliy...maebus? ::z3,e5F `4`,y
chinese? french? or english?
回复 #18 BubbleAngel 的帖子
I'm Canadian. From what I've been told, my ancestry is predominantly Irish and French. I don't know much about the Irish part because they assimilated with the French when they arrived here. It's possible that I have some ancestors from China, but this would be 30,000-40,000 years ago. Either way, English is my dominant language and Chinese is a foreign language to me. [quote]原帖由 [i]maebus[/i] 于 2007-2-3 21:55 发表I'm Canadian. From what I've been told, my ancestry is predominantly Irish and French. I don't know much about the Irish part because they assimilated with the French when they arrived here. It's possible that I have some ancestors from China, but this would be 30,000-40,000 years ago. Either way, English is my dominant language and Chinese is a foreign language to me.[/quote] pzq7AA O(g
Once you said you remember learning your own mother tongue, which is really rare. Now I see where it comes from. 7|c,L"`i/S
[b][size=7][color=purple][color=darkorchid]I wonder how you look like, given Irish and French ancestors...[/color] "{7q+g1gY;Pu
Photos! Give us photos!![/color][/size][/b]
回复 #20 Pharm.D 的帖子
An anthropologist attitude::z5 [quote]原帖由 [i]cosmoon[/i] 于 2007-2-5 05:04 发表/Z*Xz znF h)|/J \u DAn anthropologist attitude::z5 [/quote]){ d(h5z no+Q/J
Actually it is a gossiper's attitude...eK2dU7Nf#e~0S
Don't you want to see maebus's photos? If you do, stand by my side! You remind me of someone i know from Canada.........::z3
anyway...im on D.D.'s side~~~ PHOTO,PHOTO~ :loveliness: [quote]原帖由 [i]BubbleAngel[/i] 于 2007-2-6 12:29 发表3f W W(b$c6I.J
You remind me of someone i know from Canada.........::z3
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anyway...im on D.D.'s side~~~ PHOTO,PHOTO~ :loveliness: [/quote]
Support::80 phote, photo~please! I definitely ain't the only gossiper here...::p7 hehe~~my major is psychology. I will be a graduate student and do the reseach about language acquisition. I hope we can find the way to learn the second language without wasting so many brain cells because i am lazy hehe~~But before I enter this field I need study harder and harder to master the skill of reading english articles 5555~~ To those asking for photos, I don't really have any handy. I think what I'll do, though, is record some music and it being played by webcam and put it on Youtube. There's an Acadian song I wanted to record anyway, so I might as well do it this way. I just have to figure out how to get the equipment set up and find proper lighting first.
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Also, I'd also like to provide a link to an article that covers information more than I have initially said: [url]http://www.zompist.com/whylang.html[/url]
It's an interesting read.
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borage, at least learning secondary languages is directly related to your subject material. You can study yourself studying language. Language learning by its nature requires lots of practice. At least it is relatively easy (cf. learning high-level math). The more you read the more you'll be habituated with the specific vocabulary.
回复 #27 maebus 的帖子
It's nice to have you here, Maebus. Your writing is both fluent and throught-provoking. But I am curious how you get to know Taisha, which is a predominently Chinese online community. In fact, I think people here will benefit more if we could bring more foreign friends to Taisha. I cann't agree more with host's conclusion. As far as I know, Marx mastered several languages in the way similar to host's.回复 #28 tesolchina 的帖子
Oh my, it's been over two months that I haven't posted regularly. To finally answer your question, a friend of mine in real life is a moderator of another forum here so he always had the site open and would occasionally use me as a reference. So, that's how I found out about this place. I signed up a while later after I started lurking a bit just to see what it has. I don't think my friend knows my login yet-- he's never mentioned anything about it-- since I don't often post in his forum. Maybe it's about time I let him know::z2 h H$N.J(vHWell, since language and culture are practically inseparable having more people familiar with English-speaking cultures here would be a benefit. After all, one person alone can not define a culture. The problem would be finding English-speakers that are well-behaved enough (especially amongst themselves) from a Chinese perspective. Also, second-language English learners from other countries would offer some interesting viewpoints and the non-Chinese influenced English, not necessarily proper, would help shape the English here through the need for clarifications. Maybe there are other recruits out there to be found::11 could we share the soft named rosetta stone with you on line .!~!ZW|?'\
level 1,2,3. thank you ! b z'H M(gA ^6o/LG;a!B
it's really a good soft .but it's expensive. I know one can download a copy of The Rosetta Stone with BitTorrent. If you search for "Rosetta Stone" on somewhere like isohunt.com you should be able to find it for download. I don't know if it will be accessible or not from wherever you are but it's a place to start looking. If that doesn't work I could search out other places... Hehe, it took me a while but I finally got a decent picture of myself taken. So, if the people who have been asking are still wondering, here it is. a great article.but.....i am a little tired in reading this,however..so i will be coming back tomorrow::z1
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