Let me begin with something General Eisenhower said in his 1952 presidential campaign. Quote, "We must achieve both security and solvency. In fact, the foundation of military strength is economic strength," end quote.

让我以艾森豪威尔将军在1952年总统竞选时说过的一句话开始:“我们必须获得安全和财务偿还能力。事实上,军事实力的基础就是经济实力。”

With that in mind, the first lead question.

在脑中记住这个,让我们开始第一个引导问题。

Gentlemen, at this very moment tonight, where do you stand on the financial recovery plan?

先生们,在今晚这个特别的时刻,你们在金融拯救计划中站在哪里?

First response to you, Senator Obama. You have two minutes.

第一个回答问题的是你,议员奥巴马。你有两分钟时间。

OBAMA: Well, thank you very much, Jim, and thanks to the commission and the University of Mississippi, Ole Miss, for hosting us tonight. I can't think of a more important time for us to talk about the future of the country.

奥巴马:好的,非常感谢你,吉姆,也感谢(总统竞选辩论)委员会,感谢密西西比大学今晚容纳我们。我无法想象我们还有比今晚讨论这个国家的未来的更重要的时刻了。

You know, we are at a defining moment in our history. Our nation is involved in two wars, and we are going through the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression.

你们知道,我们现在正处于我们历史上的一个决定性时刻。我们的民族被涉入两场战争(注:伊拉克战争和阿富汗战争),而我们正在经历自经济大萧条(注:1929年)以来最糟糕的金融危机。

And although we've heard a lot about Wall Street, those of you on Main Street I think have been struggling for a while, and you recognize that this could have an impact on all sectors of the economy.

尽管我们听说了相当多关于华尔街的事情,但你们那些在城镇主街上的人们(注:这里指美国城镇和乡村的典型居民)已经在(艰难地)努力了一段时间。你们都知道这(金融危机)也许会影响到经济的方方面面。

And you're wondering, how's it going to affect me? How's it going to affect my job? How's it going to affect my house? How's it going to affect my retirement savings or my ability to send my children to college?

你们想要知道,它(金融危机)如何影响到我?如何影响到我的工作?如何影响到我的住宅?如何影响到我的退休金储蓄或者是送我孩子上大学的能力?

So we have to move swiftly, and we have to move wisely. And I've put forward a series of proposals that make sure that we protect taxpayers as we engage in this important rescue effort.

所以我们必须得即刻就行动了,而且我们得要明智地行动。我已经提出一系列的建议,以确保当我们从事这项重要的(金融)拯救行动时,纳税人(的权益)得到保护。

Number one, we've got to make sure that we've got oversight over this whole process; $700 billion, potentially, is a lot of money.

首先,我们必须确保整个过程有仔细的监督。可能(被国会通过)的7000亿美元是一笔相当大的数额。

Number two, we've got to make sure that taxpayers, when they are putting their money at risk, have the possibility of getting that money back and gains, if the market -- and when the market returns.

第二,我们必须确保纳税人现在冒着风险投入的钱有可能拿回来并增加,只要市场——且当市场回复(正常)时。

Number three, we've got to make sure that none of that money is going to pad CEO bank accounts or to promote golden parachutes.

第三,我们必须确保(这些钱)一分钱也不能变成CEO的银行账户或者成为黄金保护伞(注:企业的高级管理层或离任的政府官员在失去他们原来的工作后,在经济上给予其丰厚保障的安排)。

And, number four, we've got to make sure that we're helping homeowners, because the root problem here has to do with the foreclosures that are taking place all across the country.

第四,我们必须确保我们正在帮助住宅所有者,因为问题的根源与在这个国家到处都在发生的无力偿付房贷有关。

Now, we also have to recognize that this is a final verdict on eight years of failed economic policies promoted by George Bush, supported by Senator McCain, a theory that basically says that we can shred regulations and consumer protections and give more and more to the most, and somehow prosperity will trickle down.

现在,我们也必须承认这(金融危机)就是对议员麦凯恩所支持的乔治.布什这八年来失败的经济政策的最终裁决。(他们的)一个理论主要宣称的是我们可以撕碎(市场)管理和消费者保护,只要给予越来越多的(自由)直到极致,然后繁荣昌盛就会从天上掉下来。

It hasn't worked. And I think that the fundamentals of the economy have to be measured by whether or not the middle class is getting a fair shake. That's why I'm running for president, and that's what I hope we're going to be talking about tonight.

(他们的)理论根本没有起过作用。而我认为经济的基础应该以中产阶级是否能进行公平交易作为衡量标准。这就是为什么我在竞选总统,这也是我所希望今晚我们将所讨论的。

LEHRER: Senator McCain, two minutes.

主持人:麦凯恩议员,两分钟。

MCCAIN: Well, thank you, Jim. And thanks to everybody.

麦凯恩:好的,谢谢你,吉姆。谢谢所有人。

And I do have a sad note tonight. Senator Kennedy is in the hospital. He's a dear and beloved friend to all of us. Our thoughts and prayers go out to the lion of the Senate.

今晚我还有一个令人遗憾的消息:肯尼迪议员住院了。他是我们最亲爱的一个朋友。让我们向议会的雄狮表达挂念和祈祷。

I also want to thank the University of Mississippi for hosting us tonight.

我也要感谢今晚容纳我们的密西西比大学。

And, Jim, I -- I've been not feeling too great about a lot of things lately. So have a lot of Americans who are facing challenges. But I'm feeling a little better tonight, and I'll tell you why.

而吉姆,我——我近来一直对很多事情感到不满。许多面临困难的美国人们也和我一样。然而今晚我感觉稍微好些了,我会告诉你为什么。

Because as we're here tonight in this debate, we are seeing, for the first time in a long time, Republicans and Democrats together, sitting down, trying to work out a solution to this fiscal crisis that we're in.

这是因为我们在今晚这场辩论上,我们看到,这是相当长一段时间以来第一次共和党人和民主党人坐下来,尝试作出一个我们所面临的金融危机的解决方案。

(注:我认为麦凯恩此言,意在抨击民主党人的“不合作”。当然,这个“不合作”是由他所定义的。)

And have no doubt about the magnitude of this crisis. And we're not talking about failure of institutions on Wall Street. We're talking about failures on Main Street, and people who will lose their jobs, and their credits, and their homes, if we don't fix the greatest fiscal crisis, probably in -- certainly in our time, and I've been around a little while.

我们毫不怀疑这次危机的危害性。我们现在不是在讨论华尔街那些机构的破产,我们是在讨论城镇主街上(那些人)的破产。如果我们不解决掉这次重大的财政危机,也许——不,毫无疑问地,在我们的有生之年,人们将失去他们的工作,他们的银行存款和他们的家。(笑)我已经伴随(金融危机)一段时间了。

But the point is -- the point is, we have finally seen Republicans and Democrats sitting down and negotiating together and coming up with a package.

但重点是——重点是,我们终于看到了,共和党人和民主党人坐下来一起磋商并将提出一系列方案(注:由于找不到中文对应于package的这个意思,只好用一系列方案来代替了)。

This package has transparency in it. It has to have accountability and oversight. It has to have options for loans to failing businesses, rather than the government taking over those loans. We have to -- it has to have a package with a number of other essential elements to it.

这些方案应该有透明性。它们应该可以落实责任和监管。它们应该包括转让衰退中的生意的债权,而不是让政府直接接管这些债权。我们必须——不,这些方案还应当包括许多其他的必需元素。

And, yes, I went back to Washington, and I met with my Republicans in the House of Representatives. And they weren't part of the negotiations, and I understand that. And it was the House Republicans that decided that they would be part of the solution to this problem.

还有,我回了一趟华盛顿,并会见了众议院的共和党议员们。他们并没有参与磋商,我理解。是共和党议会决定,他们也将是解决这次(金融危机)问题的一部分。

But I want to emphasize one point to all Americans tonight. This isn't the beginning of the end of this crisis. This is the end of the beginning, if we come out with a package that will keep these institutions stable.

但今晚我想对所有的美国人强调一点。现在不是金融危机尾声的序幕。即使我们拿出一系列解决方案使得那些(金融)机构稳定,现在也只是金融危机序幕的尾声。

And we've got a lot of work to do. And we've got to create jobs. And one of the areas, of course, is to eliminate our dependence on foreign oil.

我们还有很多事情要做。我们得创造就业岗位。而创造就业岗位中一件(要做的)事情就是消除我们对外国石油的依赖。

(注:个人以为麦凯恩在最后几句话里渲染金融危机的严重性,然后稍微透露一点“宏图和前景”,企图加强美国人对他的依赖感。很古老的招数,但政客们都在用。)

LEHRER: All right, let's go back to my question. How do you all stand on the recovery plan? And talk to each other about it. We've got five minutes. We can negotiate a deal right here.

主持人:好的,让我们回到我的问题。你们两位在经济救援计划中站在哪边?直接告诉对方。我们还有5分钟。我们现在就可以在这里商讨出一个结果。

But, I mean, are you -- do you favor this plan, Senator Obama, and you, Senator McCain? Do you -- are you in favor of this plan?

我(先前的)意思是,你们支持这个(经济救援)计划吗?奥巴马议员,还有你,麦凯恩议员?你支持这个计划吗?

OBAMA: We haven't seen the language yet. And I do think that there's constructive work being done out there. So, for the viewers who are watching, I am optimistic about the capacity of us to come together with a plan.

奥巴马:我们还没有看到这个计划。我认为在(国会)正在进行一项建设性的工作。所以,我想对观众们说,我对我们一起提出一项计划的能力表示乐观。

(注:奥巴马这里回避了主持人的问题。他还是没有说他究竟是支持还是不支持。他的回答是一个non-answer,我们称为打太极、不表态。)

The question, I think, that we have to ask ourselves is, how did we get into this situation in the first place?

问题是,我在想,我们应该问问我们自己的是,我们是如何首次进入这种状况的?

Two years ago, I warned that, because of the subprime lending mess, because of the lax regulation, that we were potentially going to have a problem and tried to stop some of the abuses in mortgages that were taking place at the time.

两年前,我就警告过,由于次级贷款的混乱,由于松懈的管理,我们可能正在走向潜伏的问题。我还试图阻止一些当时抵押的滥用。

Last year, I wrote to the secretary of the Treasury to make sure that he understood the magnitude of this problem and to call on him to bring all the stakeholders together to try to deal with it.

去年,我写信给财政部长,以确信他意识到这个问题的严重性。我呼吁他召集投资人设法解决这个问题。

So -- so the question, I think, that we've got to ask ourselves is, yes, we've got to solve this problem short term. And we are going to have to intervene; there's no doubt about that.

所以,这个我们询问自己的问题,我认为,我们应该在短期内解决金融问题。我们需要干涉了,不容怀疑。

But we're also going to have to look at, how is it that we shredded so many regulations? We did not set up a 21st-century regulatory framework to deal with these problems. And that in part has to do with an economic philosophy that says that regulation is always bad.

但我们也需要看看,是什么让我们撕裂了那么多的(金融)管理?我们没有设立一个21世纪的管理框架来处理这些问题。而这(金融危机)部分地与一种经济理念有关。这种经济理念说(金融)管理总是坏的。

(注:奥巴马不但回避了问题,而且开始了强烈地对布什政府,以及支持布什政府的麦凯恩议员的抨击,认为他们的观念有问题。)

LEHRER: Are you going to vote for the plan, Senator McCain?

主持人:你会支持(金融拯救)计划吗,麦凯恩议员?

MCCAIN: I -- I hope so. And I...

麦凯恩:我——我希望是,而且我……

LEHRER: As a United States senator...

主持人:作为一位美国的议员……

MCCAIN: Sure.

麦凯恩:当然。

LEHRER: ... you're going to vote for the plan?

主持人:……你是说你会投票支持这个计划?

MCCAIN: Sure. But -- but let me -- let me point out, I also warned about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and warned about corporate greed and excess, and CEO pay, and all that. A lot of us saw this train wreck coming.

麦凯恩:当然。但是——请让我——让我指出来,我同样也警告过了联邦抵押协会和联邦房贷抵押机构,警告过了(金融)企业的贪婪和无度,还有CEO的(高)薪水,所有这些。我们很多人都看到了这火车即将来临的失事。

(注:Fannie Mae = Federal National Mortgage Association, Freddie Mac = Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation)

But there's also the issue of responsibility. You've mentioned President Dwight David Eisenhower. President Eisenhower, on the night before the Normandy invasion, went into his room, and he wrote out two letters.

但这里同样要考虑责任的问题。你(主持人)提到了总统德怀特.大卫.艾森豪威尔。艾森豪威尔总统在进攻诺曼底的前夜,走进他的房间,写了两封信。

One of them was a letter congratulating the great members of the military and allies that had conducted and succeeded in the greatest invasion in history, still to this day, and forever.

其中一封信是庆祝部队和盟军中的杰出成员成功地完成了历史上最伟大的一次进攻,到现在,直到永远。

And he wrote out another letter, and that was a letter of resignation from the United States Army for the failure of the landings at Normandy.

他还写了另一封信。那是一封向美国军方的辞职信。辞职的理由是诺曼底登陆的失败。

Somehow we've lost that accountability. I've been heavily criticized because I called for the resignation of the chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission. We've got to start also holding people accountable, and we've got to reward people who succeed.

不知何故,我们的责任没有落实。我一直饱受批评,因为我要求证券交易委员会的主席辞职。我们得让人们(为自己的工作)负责,并奖励那些(工作上)成功的人们。

But somehow in Washington today -- and I'm afraid on Wall Street -- greed is rewarded, excess is rewarded, and corruption -- or certainly failure to carry out our responsibility is rewarded.

然而,在今天的华盛顿——我恐怕华尔街也是,不知为何,贪婪得到奖励,无度得到奖励,而腐败,或者无疑地说失职得到奖励。

As president of the United States, people are going to be held accountable in my administration. And I promise you that that will happen.

(如果)我是美国总统,在我的管理下,人们将(为自己的工作)负责。我向你们保证那将实现。

LEHRER: Do you have something directly to say, Senator Obama, to Senator McCain about what he just said?

主持人:你有没有一些对麦凯恩议员刚才所说的话直接要说的,奥巴马议员?

OBAMA: Well, I think Senator McCain's absolutely right that we need more responsibility, but we need it not just when there's a crisis. I mean, we've had years in which the reigning economic ideology has been what's good for Wall Street, but not what's good for Main Street.

奥巴马:嗯,我认为我们确实需要更多的责任(感),麦凯恩议员(在这点上)完全正确,但我们不应只在危机出现的时候才需要它(注:奥巴马此言,已经在影射麦凯恩及执政的共和党人在之前的不负责任,导致了现在的这场金融危机)。我指的是,在过去的数年时间里,占统治地位的经济思想总是考虑什么对华尔街有利,而不是什么对城镇大街(上的人们)有利。

And there are folks out there who've been struggling before this crisis took place. And that's why it's so important, as we solve this short-term problem, that we look at some of the underlying issues that have led to wages and incomes for ordinary Americans to go down, the -- a health care system that is broken, energy policies that are not working, because, you know, 10 days ago, John said that the fundamentals of the economy are sound.

而且,在(金融)危机发生之前,就有那么一些人在(辛苦地)挣扎了。这也是为什么我们在解决这个短期(金融)问题的时候,看看一些深层次的问题是如此重要。这些问题让普通美国人的工资和收入下降,让医疗系统破碎,让能源政策失效。因为……你知道,10天前,约翰(麦凯恩)还在说经济的根本还是健康的。

(注:奥巴马在这句话的最后提到“因为……”时,停顿了一下,他其实真正想说的是“就是像麦凯恩这样的共和党人导致了现在的金融问题”,但他需要仔细斟酌措辞,不能说得太过,以免被对手抓住把柄。麦凯恩其实也有苦衷,10天前他还没有意识到金融危机是如此迅速地展现在了所有人面前,他还以为那些华尔街的投资银行可以撑一段时间。也因为他还需要支撑住他背后的共和党,需要修饰共和党的执政能力。这使得他不得不硬着头皮说“经济根本还是健康的”。不料到了今天辩论的时候,几大投资银行相继破产或转行,他所说过的话也就成了奥巴马所攻击的把柄。这其实和某些人说“照片是真的”有异曲同工之妙。下面就看麦凯恩如何拆招了。)

LEHRER: Say it directly to him.

主持人:直接向他(麦凯恩)说。

OBAMA: I do not think that they are.

奥巴马:我不认为经济的根本是健康的。

LEHRER: Say it directly to him.

主持人:直接向他(麦凯恩)说。

OBAMA: Well, the -- John, 10 days ago, you said that thefundamentals of the economy are sound. And...

奥巴马:好的,约翰,10天前,你还在说经济的根本还是健康的,而……

MCCAIN: Are you afraid I couldn't hear him?

麦凯恩:(笑对主持人)你担心我听不到他说话吗?

(LAUGHTER)(笑声)

LEHRER: I'm just determined to get you all to talk to eachother. I'm going to try.

主持人:我只是想要让你们俩互相交流。我想试试(笑)。

OBAMA: The -- and I just fundamentally disagree. And unless we are holding ourselves accountable day in, day out, not just when there's a crisis for folks who have power and influence and can hire lobbyists, but for the nurse, the teacher, the police officer, who, frankly, at the end of each month, they've got a little financial crisis going on.

奥巴马:而我根本就不同意这点。除非我们不论什么时候都让我们(对我们的工作)负责,而不是在出现危机的时候。(这危机只是)让某些有权力和影响力的人可以雇佣说客(而已),而坦白地说,对于护士、教师、警员,每个月的月末,都有着金融危机在上演(注:这里指房贷)。

They're having to take out extra debt just to make their mortgage payments. We haven't been paying attention to them. And if you look at our tax policies, it's a classic example.

他们必须拿出额外的钱来偿还抵押贷款。我们一直没有注意到他们。但你们如果看看我们的税收政策,那就是一个典型的例子(注:指税收和房贷一样,都在抽取着普通美国人的收入)。

LEHRER: So, Senator McCain, do you agree with what Senator Obama just said? And, if you don't, tell him what you disagree with.

主持人:那么,麦凯恩议员,你同意奥巴马议员刚才所说的吗?如果你不同意,告诉他你不同意什么。

MCCAIN: No, I -- look, we've got to fix the system. We've got fundamental problems in the system. And Main Street is paying a penalty for the excesses and greed in Washington, D.C., and in the Wall Street.

麦凯恩:(我)不同意。我……你看,我们得修理(我们的金融)系统。这个系统的根本有些问题,而城镇大街(上的人们)正在为华盛顿和华尔街的无度和贪婪付出代价。

So there's no doubt that we have a long way to go. And, obviously, stricter interpretation and consolidation of the various regulatory agencies that weren't doing their job, that has brought on this crisis.

所以,毫不怀疑,我们有很长的路要走。而且,很明显地,对各种各样没有做好他们工作而导致了这场(金融)危机的管理机构(实行)更加严格的整理和合并。

(注:好个太极推手。麦凯恩接过奥巴马的咄咄逼人的锋头,顺势将这股力打向了金融管理机构。须知麦凯恩竞选的一个主要口号就是他要规整政府部门,改整机构。麦凯恩努力让大家把注意力集中在金融机构的失职上,而不是执政的共和党上,可谓用心良苦。然则美国老百姓也不是傻子。实事求是地说,这次金融危机,作为执政党的共和党确有较大责任。麦凯恩这一捣浆糊,看来很难糊弄过去。)

But I have a fundamental belief in the goodness and strength of the American worker. And the American worker is the most productive, the most innovative. America is still the greatest producer, exporter and importer.

但我心中深信美国劳动人民的善良和力量。而且美国劳动人民是富有生产力和创造力的(人民)。美国仍然是(世界上)最大的生产国、出口国和进口国。

(注:当政客甜言蜜语地夸奖老百姓的能力时,就是要让老百姓做牛做马的时候了。麦凯恩寄希望于美国人民努力工作,把金融危机的洞给填实喽。这一招实在是失策啊!占人口大多数的美国工人不会吃这一套。而奥巴马想要从大企业家和富翁身上剥层皮来填金融的大洞,显然更能得到大多数美国人的欢心。从现在的支持率来看,也是如此。)

But we've got to get through these times, but I have a fundamental belief in the United States of America. And I still believe, under the right leadership, our best days are ahead of us.

但我们一定要熬过这段时间,我深信美利坚合众国(能做到)。我还相信,在正确的领导下,幸福的生活就在我们前头。